This
continues my response to Stafford regarding Jesus being the Creator. Here, I
will focus on JW apologist Hector Heinz, a gentleman who runs the following
website:
http://hector3000.future.easyspace.com/index.htm
Heinz tried
to respond to my monotheism paper, which was essentially my response to
Stafford’s section on biblical monotheism. My paper can be found here:
http://www.abrahamic-faith.com/False/Jehovah-Witness.html
And here:
http://www.jude3.net/biblical_monotheism_examined.htm
Heinz’s
reply can be found here:
http://hector3000.future.easyspace.com/alethinos.htm
And here:
http://www.geocities.com/yhwhbible/alethinos.htm
I then
wrote a very lengthy rebuttal to Heinz’s response:
http://www.abrahamic-faith.com/shamoun/heinz-rebuttal.html
Heinz then
tried to respond back! You can find some of it in his initial response to me, as
well as here:
http://hector3000.future.easyspace.com/sam.htm
http://www.geocities.com/yhwhbible/sam.htm
The aim of
my paper is to deal with some of Heinz’s response to my use of OT passages which
say that Yahweh alone created the cosmos. Heinz’s comments will be in blue.
Heinz begins:
Sam does bring up Scriptures where Jehovah says he created alone.
We know that Jehovah, was not really alone at the time of creation because Job
38:6, 7 tells us: "When I laid the foundation of the earth ... all the sons of
God shouted for joy". The angels shouted for joy when Jehovah, through His Son,
"laid the foundations of the earth".
RESPONSE:
Heinz
misrepresents my argument. Here is what I originally wrote in my response to
Heinz:
JW apologists claim that this passage does not prove that Jehovah created all
things by himself, but that the context is refuting the false notion that the
pagan gods of the nations were responsible for creation. It is in this light
that Jehovah claims to be alone in creating the cosmos. Yet this reasoning
cannot be sustained in light of the following passage:
Job reiterates the point of Isaiah 44:24 and yet no mention of pagan gods can
be found throughout the context. Therefore, the reasoning employed by JWs
cannot be sustained since with or without the context of false gods, the OT is
in agreement that Jehovah alone created all things.
It is quite
clear to anyone reading my comments that I was saying that Yahweh created the
cosmos without the assistance of anyone. I wasn’t claiming that Yahweh was
necessarily alone when he created the cosmos BY HIMSELF. As I said in response
to Stafford, which Heinz supposedly has read:
Furthermore, Trinitarians do not deny the possibility of angels existing during
the formation of the universe. The Trinitarian point is that Scripture ascribes
creation to Jehovah alone, not that Jehovah was by himself when he alone created
the universe.
Heinz also
misapplies and misunderstands Job 38:6-7, since he thinks this proves that there
were angels present at the time of creation. By creation, I take Heinz to be
referring to the heavens and the earth. The problem with Heinz’s reading of the
passages is that Job 38 says nothing about angels being present when God created the heavens. It only says that angels were present when God
laid
the foundations of the earth:
“Where
were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have
understanding. Who determined its measurements--surely you know! Or who
stretched the line upon it? On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its
cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God
shouted for joy? Or who shut in the sea with doors, when it burst forth from
the womb; when I made clouds its garment, and thick darkness its swaddling
band, and prescribed bounds for it, and set bars and doors, and said, ‘Thus
far shall you come, and no farther, and here shall your proud waves be
stayed’?” Job 38:4-11 RSV
One is safe
to assume that angels were around when God was fashioning the earth since they
would have come into being during the creation of the heavens. This view is
supported both by the overall context of the scriptures and extra-biblical
references which can be read here:
http://www.forananswer.org/John/Jn1_1_ov1.htm
In any
case, Heinz’s appeal to Job 38 does nothing to refute the point that Yahweh
ALONE created the cosmos.
HEINZ:
We see also that the created Wisdom (Jesus) was helping god during creation
creation,
"when he marked out the foundations of the earth, then I was beside him, like a
master workman (ftn. little child)." Prov 8:22-30 RSV
RESPONSE:
Heinz
erroneously assumes a couple of things:
-
He erroneously assumes that Prov. 8:22 refers to the preincarnate Christ
-
He erroneously assumes that the Hebrew verb
qanah means create, as
opposed to possesses, to get etc.
Since it
is beyond the scope of this article to deal with these issues, we will have to
defer this discussion for a future article. For now, we recommend Ray
Goldsmith’s refutation of the JW use of Prov. 8 in his dialogue with JW Wrench,
titled:
A
Dialog on the Son of God Created between Wrench in the Works (an anonymous,
self-described Jehovah's Witness) and Ray Goldsmith (a Christian layman).
The debate
can be found here:
http://jude3.net/whatnew.htm
Here, we
would like to show how Heinz’s method of exegesis can be used to prove the very
opposite of his assertion. In trying to connect the Lord Jesus with the Wisdom
of Prov. 8, Heinz failed to see how this undermines his own position:
Reply: It
is the Bible that calls Jesus "the firstborn of all creation," "the beginning
of God's creation," the "only-begotten Son" and links Jesus to the "created"
Wisdom of Proverbs (Col 1:15; Rev 3:14; Jn 3:16; Prov 8:22-30 cf. Lu 11:47/1Cor
1:24 RSV). (http://hector3000.future.easyspace.com/wilson.htm)
Heinz
connects Prov. 8 with 1 Cor. 1:24 to prove that Jesus is God’s created Wisdom.
We would like to quote the passage in order to show our readers what Heinz
missed:
“however,
to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the POWER of God
(christen theou dunamin) and the WISDOM of God.” NWT
Jesus is
called God’s Wisdom AND Power, which is quite significant. The Scriptures state
that God’s power is both eternal and divine:
"For his
invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world's creation onward,
because they are perceived by the things made, even his ETERNAL POWER (he
te aidios autou dunamis) and Godship, so that they are inexcusable."
Romans 1:20 NWT
“forasmuch as
his DIVINE POWER (tes theias dunameos autou)
has given us freely all the things that concern life and godly devotion,
through the accurate knowledge of the one who called us through glory and
virtue.” 2 Peter 1:3 NWT
Applying
Heinz’ exegetical method we are forced to conclude that Jesus is uncreated!
Note:
-
God's power is divine and eternal.
-
Jesus is God's power.
-
Therefore, Jesus is divine and eternal.
If Heinz is
to remain consistent then he must accept this conclusion, since both premises in
the syllogism are biblically valid. Otherwise, for Heinz to reject this only
shows that he is rather inconsistent in how he handles the biblical data and is
simply reading into the Holy Bible his post-biblical 19th century JW
theology.
Furthermore, to quote a passage that says that Wisdom was there when God created
all things doesn’t help Heinz in the least. God’s Wisdom is an essential part of
his eternal Being, originating from within Himself. In fact, the Scriptures also
teach that God used Wisdom to create ALL THINGS. See for instance the following
citations:
“For the
Lord gives wisdom, and from his mouth comes knowledge and
understanding.” Proverbs 2:6 NET Bible
The NET
translators’ note 26 says:
… This
_expression is an anthropomorphism; it indicates that the Lord is the
immediate source or author of the wisdom. It is worth noting that in the
incarnation many of these "anthropomorphisms" become literal in the person of
the Logos, the Word, Jesus, who reveals the Father. (http://netbible.org/cgi-bin/netbible.pl#note_26)
Continuing
further:
“The
Lord by wisdom laid the foundation of the earth; he established the
heavens by understanding. By his knowledge the primordial sea was broken open,
and the clouds drip down dew.” Proverbs 3:19-20 NET Bible
“O LORD,
how manifold are thy works! In wisdom hast thou made them ALL;
the earth is full of thy creatures.” Psalm 104:24 RSV
“The Lord
is the one who by his POWER made the earth. He is the one who by his
WISDOM fixed the world in place.” Jeremiah 10:12 NET Bible
These facts
demonstrate that Wisdom is uncreated, which provides additional evidence that
Jesus is eternal, and hence God! Again:
-
God’s Wisdom is eternal and the agent of creation.
-
Jesus is God’s Wisdom.
-
Therefore, Jesus is eternal and the agent of creation.
Interestingly, it was passages such as these that led the early Church to
conclude that Christ was eternally begotten or generated; i.e., that Christ
existed eternally with the Father, while at the same time deriving his Deity and
divine existence from the One who generated him.
HEINZ:
The use of the term, "alone", "by myself" etc do not necessarily mean the same
thing to those in power, even in the Bible. What do I mean?
Let us look at Daniel 4:30 and Isaiah 63:3. Daniel 4:30, "The king reflected and
said, 'Is this not Babylon the great, which I myself have built.' " NASB.
"The king was saying, 'Great Babylon! Imperial palace! Did I not build it
alone.' " Jerusalem Bible.
"The king spake and said, Is this not Babylon the great, - which I myself have
built," J.B. Rotherham
Nebuchadnezzar was not the only person to have built Babylon, was he? But it
was built by his authority, his word and no other's.
RESPONSE:
Heinz has committed the fallacy of false analogy since these passages are
not at all parallel to God creating the cosmos. It is evident that alone here
doesn’t mean that Nebu built Babylon by himself, but refers to his having the
authority to carry out his desires. But even here Nebu was wrong as the CONTEXT
shows, since it was Yahweh who granted authority to the king to carry out his
plans:
“This is
the interpretation, O king. It is the decision of the Most High that this has
happened to my lord the king. You will be driven from human society, and you
will live with the wild animals. You will be fed grass like oxen, and you will
become damp with the dew of the sky. Seven times will pass by for you, before you understand that the Most High is ruler over human kingdoms and
gives them to whomever he wishes. Now in that they said to leave a taproot
of the tree, your kingdom will be restored to you when you come to
understand that heaven rules. Therefore, O king, may my advice be pleasing
to you. Break away from your sins by doing acts of righteousness, and from
your iniquities by showing mercy to the poor. Perhaps your prosperity will be
prolonged.’” Daniel 4:24-27 NET Bible
“But at
the end of the appointed time I, Nebuchadnezzar, looked up toward heaven, and
my sanity returned to me. I blessed the Most High, and I praised and glorified
the one who lives forever. For his rule is an everlasting rule, and his
kingdom extends from one generation to the next. All the inhabitants of the
earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he wishes with the army of heaven
and with those who inhabit the earth. No one slaps his hand and says to him,
‘What have you done?’ At that time my sanity returned to me. I was
restored to the honor of my kingdom, and my splendor returned to me. My
ministers and my magistrates were seeking me out, and I was reinstated over my
kingdom. Tremendous greatness was restored to me, greater than before. Now I,
Nebuchadnezzar, praise and exalt and glorify the King of heaven, for all
his deeds are right and his ways are just. He is able to bring low those who
live in pride.” Daniel 4:34-37 NET Bible
Heinz’s
next example actually proves that Jesus and the Angel of Yahweh (whom we feel is
the preincarnate Christ) is Yahweh God!
Isaiah 63:3 says: "I [Jehovah] have trodden the wine press alone, and of the
peoples there was no man with me." Again, it was not Jehovah who personally
punish these people. It was His angel acting on the Jehovah's authority. (2
Kings 19:35, 36)
RESPONSE:
Later on we
will show that the Angel is Yahweh God. Here, we would like to quote Isaiah 63
in order to see how this provides additional proof that Jesus is Yahweh God
Almighty:
"Who is
this one coming from E'dom, the one with garments of glowing colors from
Boz'rah, this one who is honorable in his clothing, marching in the
abundance of his power? 'I, the One speaking in righteousness, the One
abounding [in power] to save.' Why is it that your clothing is red, and
your garments are like those of one treading in the winepress? 'The
wine I have trodden BY MYSELF, while THERE WAS NO MAN WITH ME from the
peoples. And I kept treading them in my anger, and I kept tramping them
down in my rage. And their spurting blood kept spattering upon my garments and
all my clothing I have polluted. For the day of vengeance is in my heart,
and the very year of my repurchased ones has come. And I kept looking, BUT
THERE WAS NO HELPER; and I began to show myself astonished, BUT THERE WAS NO
ONE OFFERING SUPPORT. So my arm furnished me salvation, and my rage was
what supported me. And I kept stamping down peoples in my anger, and I
proceeded to make them drunk with my rage and to bring down to the earth
spurting blood.'" Isaiah 63:1-6 NWT
Isaiah
repeats this here:
"… 'And
Jehovah got to see, and it was bad in his eyes that there was no justice. And
when he saw THAT THERE WAS NO MAN, he began to show himself astonished that
there was no one interposing. And his arm proceeded to save for him, and his
OWN righteousness was the thing that supported. Then he put on righteousness
as a coat of mail, and the helmet of salvation upon his head. Furthermore, he
put on the garments of vengeance as raiment and enwrapped himself with
zeal as if a sleeveless coat. In accordance with the dealings he will reward
correspondingly, rage to his adversaries, due treatment to his enemies. To the
islands he will recompense due treatment. And from the sunset they will begin to
fear the name of Jehovah, and from the rising of the sun the glory of him, for
he will come in like a distressing river, which the very spirit of Jehovah has
driven along. And to Zion the Repurchaser will certainly come, and to
those turning from transgression in Jacob, is the utterance of Jehovah. 'And as
for me, this is my covenant with them,' Jehovah has said. 'My spirit that is
upon you and my words that I have put in your mouth- they will not be removed
from your mouth or from the mouth of your offspring or from the mouth of the
offspring of your offspring,' Jehovah has said, 'from now on even to time
indefinite.'" Isaiah 59:15b-21 NWT
According
to these last two passages God had to work out salvation by himself since there
was no one, no man, qualified to help him. Now compare this with the following
depiction of the risen Lord:
"And I
saw the heaven opened, and, look! a white horse. And the one seated upon it is
called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness.
His eyes are a fiery flame, and upon his head are many diadems. He has a name
written that no one knows but he himself, and he is arrayed with an outer
garment sprinkled with blood, and the name he is called is The Word of
God. Also, the armies that were in heaven were following him on white horses,
and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen. And out of his mouth there
protrudes a sharp long sword, that he may strike the nations with it, and he
will shepherd them with a rod of iron. He treads too the winepress of the
anger of the wrath of God the Almighty. And upon his outer garment, even
upon his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of Lords."
Revelation 19:11-16 NWT
Here, Jesus
is described in the same exact way that Isaiah describes Yahweh and does exactly
what the prophet says God alone was going to do! In other words, Isaiah saw and
wrote about Jesus!
HEINZ:
Did Jehovah personally chastise the Babylonians or did He use the Medes and
Perians to accomplish His will? (Daniel 5:26-28, 30-31) All these acts were done
by Jehovah's authority; and by His alone.—Ezekiel. 36:33, 36.
But this again,
is where agency comes in, such as was mentioned in the first
reply to Sam. Nave's Topical Bible rightly says under *Worship,* "to be
rendered to God only."
RESPONSE:
Heinz again
commits the fallacy of false analogy since God using creatures to accomplish his
purpose is not at all analogous to God creating the cosmos.
Furthermore, Heinz’s appeal to the concept of agency doesn’t help him at all.
Agency doesn’t account for a person calling himself Yahweh God, receiving the
worship of God, and doing the works that God alone can do.
For
instance, the Lord Jesus refers to this concept when sending out the disciples:
“The one
who listens to you listens to me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and
the one who rejects me rejects the one who sent me.” Luke 10:16 Net Bible
Just
because the Apostles functioned as Christ’s agents didn’t mean that they could
call themselves Jesus Christ when speaking to others, receive worship, or claim
to be the preexistent Logos. Agency simply means that since they were Christ’s
emissaries, having his authority, when they said or did something it was if
Christ had personally said or done it. More on this later.
Heinz
continues with his false analogies by bringing up the issue of worship:
Yet, the worship to God (Shachah, OT), is again, contrasted between Jehovah and
the false idol gods.
Ex 20:3-4, " Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto
thee a graven image..."
Ex 34:14, 17 "for thou shalt worship no other god: for Jehovah, whose name is
Jealous, is a jealous God...Thou shalt make thee no molten gods."
...and interestingly, Deut 29:26, "and went and served other gods, and
worshipped them, gods that they knew not, and that he had not given unto
them."
It is of no small note that the Bible also uses the same word (Shachah) used in
exclusive WORSHIP to Jehovah, to others as well.
"Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel" Dan
2:46 KJV, RV, ASV
"And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down
their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king." 1Chron 29:20 KJV, ASV
Here, king David is given the same worship as Jehovah.
RESPONSE:
It is
rather tiresome to see Heinz consistently bring up irrelevant issues that have
nothing to do with the subject at hand. We are not talking about whether the
word shachah is used in a BROADER sense to refer to the honor and
reverence that is shown to superiors. We are talking about creation and who
exactly brought it into being.
Furthermore, we are not aware of any passage which says that
shachah is
to be given to God alone, which leads me to my next point. It is interesting
that Heinz does not tell his readers that there is another word that is used for
worship, namely the Aramaic word pelach. This is often rendered in
English as “serve” as the following example in Daniel shows:
“Nebuchadnez'zar said, ‘Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed'nego,
who has sent his angel and delivered his servants, who trusted in him, and set
at nought the king's command, and yielded up their bodies rather than serve
and worship any god except their own God.’” Daniel 3:28 RSV
“And the
kingdom and the dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole
heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High: his
kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and
obey him.” Daniel 7:27 ASV- Cf. 3:12,14,17-18; 6:16,20[17,21 LXX]; Ezra
7:24
In all the
examples above, the LXX uses latreuo for pelach. According to the
Lord Jesus, latreuo is to be given to God alone:
“Then
Jesus said to him, ‘Begone, Satan! for it is written, “You shall worship the
Lord your God and him only shall you serve (kai auto mono latreuseis).”’”
Matthew 4:10 RSV
Amazingly,
Daniel states that all the nations will render unto the Son of Man, whom the NT
identifies as the Lord Jesus, the very pelach/latreuo/service that
only God is to receive:
“I saw in
the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a
son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him.
And to him was given dominion and glory and kingdom, that all peoples,
nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an
everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that
shall not be destroyed.” Daniel 7:13-14 RSV
The Bible
Works (5.0) version of the LXX and the Rahlfs edition of the LXX both have latreuousa in Daniel 7:14. The Aramaic word here is
yiplechûn. It
should be noted that the Rahlfs edition of the LXX contains two different
readings of this verse. Rahlf's version of Daniel has a translation from one
codex on the top of the page (syro-Hexaplaris) and another on the bottom (a
Theodotion translation). The Theodotion translation (bottom of the page on
Rahlf's translation), which Brenton’s LXX follows here, contains a form of the
verb douloo, which means to serve or slave. The Bible Works 5.0 version
of the LXX also contains this variant reading. Yet, the same Aramaic word and
both Greek words latreuo and douloo are used in the Aramaic and
Greek versions of Daniel 3:28. There we saw that Daniel's three friends ‘yielded
up their bodies so as not to serve or worship any god except their
own God.’ So, regardless of any textual variant in the LXX, the Aramaic word
used in Daniel 7:14 refers to the service that is not to be given to any god
except the true God Yahweh. And yet it is given to the Son of Man!
For more on
Jesus receiving latreuo, please read the following:
http://www.forananswer.org/Top_JW/Jesus_Latreuo.htm
Heinz next
erroneously assumes that angels received worship:
An angel even receives worship(NKJV, ASV) at Joshua 5:13-15 c.f.Ex. 23:23.
Angels were even allowed to use God's name. In Exodus 3:2 [Acts 7:30-32], "the
angel of Jehovah appeared unto him [Moses] in a flame of fire out of the midst
of a bush" Ex. 3:2. Yet later on we read that this same angel used the name
Jehovah for himself [v. 16], even the "I AM"[v.14] you find so important to your
theology. As Ex 23:20, 21 says,
"Behold,
I send an angel before thee, to keep thee by the way, and to
bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Take ye heed before him, and
hearken unto his voice; provoke him not; for he will not pardon your
transgression: for my name is in him."
So as representatives of God, angels were allowed to use his name, and to act as
God. You will find other examples of angels in similar situations at Gen 16:13,
21:17; 22:15,16; 31:11, 13, Jg 6:12, 13, 14, 20, 21, 22, 23; 13:6, 21, and Deut
5:24.
RESPONSE:
None of
these citations ascribe worship to angels, nor do they teach that angels were
allowed to use God’s name and act as God. The references all refer to a
PARTICULAR messenger of God who just so happens to be Yahweh God also (as Heinz
himself notes in anticipation of my response)! This accounts for why this angel
could receive the worship due to God, have God’s name, and act as God SINCE HE
IS GOD!
Furthermore, Heinz’s explanation leads to contradictions with the following NT
passages:
“And the
angel said to me, ‘Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the
marriage supper of the Lamb.’ And he said to me, ‘These are true words of
God.’ Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, ‘You
must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brethren who
hold the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.’ For the testimony of Jesus is the
spirit of prophecy.'" Revelation 19:9-10 RSV
“I John
am he who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell
down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me; but he said to
me, ‘You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your
brethren the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship
God.’” Revelation 22:8-9 RSV
These
passages pose considerable problems for Heinz. If it were true that angels can
receive the worship due to God since they act as his representatives, implying
that the worship is really being directed to God, then there would have been no
reason for this angel to forbid John from worshiping him. This is especially the
case when we take into consideration that this angel is identified as the angel
of God and Christ, and therefore stands in their place as their representative:
“Then the
angel said to me, ‘These words are reliable and true. The Lord, the God of the
spirits of the prophets, has sent HIS angel to show his servants what must
happen soon.’” Revelation 22:6 NET Bible
“I,
Jesus, have sent MY angel to testify to you about these things for the
churches. I am the root and the descendent of David, the bright morning star!”
Revelation 22:16 NET
The very
fact that the angel REFUSES to be worshiped, despite being God’s representative,
demonstrates just how untenable Heinz’s explanation truly is.
This
concludes this part. Part 3 to follow shortly, Lord Jesus willing.
